- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum," for the entire month of June, we celebrate freedom with LGBTQ communities around the world.

Considering the pace of social change in America, what can we be proud of?

We'll talk about it.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to "Black Issues Forum," I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

June has become a hot month for several celebrations, Father's Day, Juneteenth, and also Pride Month, not to be confused with LGBTQ Month, which is in October.

Over the years, there's been progress in the areas of education, awareness, and acceptance about the LGBTQ community.

At the same time in recent years, it's come with an uptick in violent acts against this community and subtle moves to push these individuals back into the closet.

The recent move to ban certain books in schools is one of them.

And we'll talk about that a little bit more, but first, I want to welcome Kendra R. Johnson, the executive director of Equality NC, and Representative Vernetta Alston of District 29 in Durham.

So pleased to have both of you with us.

- Delighted to be here.

- Thank you.

- I opened by asking, what do we have to be proud of?

Representative Alston, here in North Carolina, what do we have to be proud of when it concerns freedom in the LGBTQ community?

- I think we have a lot to be proud of.

I represent part of Durham County, and Durham, in particular, has led the way over decades in supporting, in fighting for, and in celebrating the LGBTQ community.

And I think you see the kind of growing support and acceptance and just love for this community statewide.

I think we can be proud of just folks wanting folks to be treated fairly.

I think we can be proud of the leverage that this community has politically to fight for equal treatment and fairness in our laws.

I think we can be proud of all the progress we've seen, especially over the last few years in the protections that we have in the workplace.

There's just so much.

So, thank you for having us today.

- Absolutely.

And I think Pauli Murray would possibly be proud as well.

Right, Kendra?

- Yeah, I think we have a lot to be proud of, and you've cited one of our true gems in the state, Pauli Murray, who contributed so much, not only to the LGBTQ+ community, but the women's rights movement, civil rights movement.

And I also think that last night, Cary just passed what is the 20th ordinance in the state.

So, that's a huge accomplishment.

All of those ordinances that we have, non-discrimination protections, include natural hair protections, and that's a huge milestone from where we came from in the fight for LGBTQ equality, where just five, six years ago, we were fighting HB2.

To have 1/3 of the state covered by comprehensive non-discrimination protections on local level is huge.

So, that's a huge thing to be celebrating this month.

- Representative Alston, I'd like to enter a point of kind of assumed separation that's actually perhaps an area of intersection, race, gender, and sex.

Someone approached the struggle for civil rights by tackling one group at a time, women, then people of color, then people with non-mainstream sexual identity.

How would you say these groups have been a part of the conversation historically?

- I think we've seen a really important partnership amongst those groups.

I think you have before you myself and Kendra, two black women who are members of the LGBTQ community, and I know we live and fight for this work on behalf of really all marginalized people and, obviously in particular, LGBTQ folks.

And I think we all share the fact that, whether it's through political decisions or cultural and systemic injustices, for all other groups that you mentioned, this country has been organized to disadvantage all of us and to make us more vulnerable to things like violence and harassment and mistreatment really across all systems in our lives.

And I think what we can do now is, again, across all these groups, kind of bring all of our experiences and kind of join in the movement that I think we're all in.

And that creates power.

I think that's how we have historically engaged with each other and how we will engage with each other in the future is to really bring all the power that comes from the struggles that we've encountered to move us forward.

- Kendra, would you say that the LGBTQ community and black communities, in particular, have been in sync in seeking liberties and civil rights from the beginning?

- Yeah, I would say absolutely that.

I think Audre Lorde said it best when she said that there is no such thing as a single-issue struggle because we don't live single-issue lives, right?

And from the very beginnings of the civil rights movement for African Americans in this country, LGBTQ folks were there.

There's Bayard Rustin, who taught Dr. King civil disobedience and a nonviolent approach.

We had Lorraine Hansberry.

We had James Baldwin.

We've had so many people.

And you've cited Pauli Murray, right, who wrote the opinion that would lead to Brown versus Education and that ruling to end segregation.

So, I think in the past, you hit it on the head.

People wanted to make us line up and put things out front.

So, first, we had to struggle as a black people.

And so people didn't bring their sexual orientation or gender identity to the fore.

But I'm really grateful that we're in a moment where we're not segregating those things.

And right now in this moment, the uprisings that we had, the three founders of the Black Lives Matter movement, two of them are queer women.

And so these things are connected, and none of us are free until all of us are free.

- Absolutely and I think it's interesting because it's been said and many people know that the leaders of the civil rights movement were not always welcoming of women.

And so that's why I wonder how have individuals in the LGBTQ community been accepted and been a part and a knowing part of the movement from the beginning?

- Yeah, I think they've been part of the movement, but I think that people were forced to put their other identities aside in order to work for this single issue.

And I don't believe that that serves us.

I think we all have to be able to bring our whole selves to the table.

And that's in part is why our organization adopted a racial equity lens because we know that we cannot do the work of LGBTQ equality if we do not factor in how race plays how it impacts our realities as we try and access systems.

So we know that Black trans women in particular are amongst the most marginalized and the most subject to violence and murder.

Just last year, Charlotte became the second most dangerous city in the country for Black trans women because of the murders that we've had there.

And that's a harrowing statistic and we can frankly do better.

So we should not see these things as separate.

We need to be working collectively because our opposition is targeting all of us.

- And speaking of trans women, we know that recently comedian Dave Chappelle caught heat for his show talking about the transgender community in his Netflix specials called "The Closer".

He said that gay people are minorities until they need to be white again.

And he said, "I have never had a problem with transgender people.

"My problem's always been with white people."

And one of the points that he seemed to be trying to make was that there's racism within the LGBTQ community, that LGBTQ social progress has benefited the white LGBTQ community but not extended to Blacks in the community and that was problematic.

What do you think about what he was saying, Kendra?

- Yeah, so the two things.

Dave Chappelle is a very wealthy individual who is not part of the LGBTQ community and he should focus his jokes on something else.

That's my personal opinion.

I just lifted up the statistic of the reality of Black trans women.

There are areas that he has made incredible social commentary.

This is not an area that he should wade into.

And his comment contribute to the hate and marginalization of trans people and it's deeply problematic.

Secondly, of course there is racism in the LGBTQ community because no one is just LGBTQ.

I am LGBTQ, I'm a Black woman.

I experienced racism from white LGBTQ folks.

That's a reality.

And there's so many fallacies to his argument.

For example, that gay folks can suddenly become white again.

I would have never been white, I'll never be white and I'm a queer person.

So this is an assumption that LGBTQ issues are only white issues.

And I think that we've had organizations and representation in the media lifting up the issues that mostly impact white LGBTQ folks, but that does not mean that the community is monolithic and that these are not issues that are Black or brown or women's issues or reproductive issues or immigration issues.

It's all interconnected.

And he should talk about things that he knows and understands.

No one would tolerate Dave Chappelle talking about women or a white comic talking about Black issues.

So why are we tolerating someone who is not from the community talking about LGBTQ issues?

- So stay in your lane, Dave.

- Yeah.

Stay in your lane, Dave.

Use your platform for some good about something that you actually know and understand.

- Representative Alston, did you wanna comment on it as well?

- Sure.

Well, excuse me, I really couldn't put it better.

I think the only thing I'll just emphasize is that racism is everywhere and we encounter it.

And I think to Kendra's point, those kinds of comments put particularly Black transgender women in danger but they also just contribute to I think the kind of isolation I think that Black LGBTQ folks can experience and feel.

And so yeah, to Kendra's point, Dave Chappelle should absolutely stay in his lane.

But I couldn't have said it better, I appreciate Kendra's comments.

- Well, even with some of the political gains that have been made in recent years, it seems that we are witnessing a resurgence in activities that reflect intolerance and opposition to LGBTQ communities and culture.

For example, earlier this month, a U-Haul truck full of white nationalists was detained and 31 men were arrested for conspiracy to riot at a Pride event in Idaho.

And another is the conversation and move to ban certain literature from public school libraries.

And some of this is in the name of protesting critical race theory, which is also interesting.

So representative Alston, how concerning are these incidents in light of the overall progress that's been made?

- They're incredibly concerning.

I think they speak politically to a very dangerous playbook that particularly the Republican party just nationwide is undertaking to attack LGBTQ folks, to attack particularly our transgender community and to use them as a political weapon that's putting the entire community in danger.

And so it's deeply troubling.

We have to do everything that we can to fight back.

And also in anticipation of potentially a Supreme Court decision that addresses Roe versus Wade, I think it could open the door to folks taking opportunities to chip away at other civil rights, including those that protect the LGBTQ community.

And so I think those kinds of political assaults are incredibly dangerous and we have to stay hyper vigilant.

I know we are doing our best here in the North Carolina legislature to protect the LGBTQ community, to kind of educate people on the fact that people in North Carolina want LGBTQ folks to be treated fairly.

- They want non-discrimination protection.

They want these things.

What we're seeing from this, the right wing is not representative of what people want and how people should be treated.

- That's an interesting point you make about the upcoming Roe V Wade decision and how it can impact other civil rights.

And I think that people really need to be attuned to that as it pertains to the protections and rights of anyone, in any space, education included.

So, we could definitely go that way.

Kendra, you know, what are your thoughts on, you know, what's happening say with our schools with the efforts to remove certain literature from the shelves?

- Yeah, I wanna just to, I'm gonna wanna touch on that but I do wanna just highlight that in addition to what happened in Idaho, we had the Proud Boys go to a library pride event just two days ago.

So this is deeply problematic.

It is not an isolated incident.

We had an insurrectionist come and film at Apex Pride.

- So there's like this feeling of freedom like this is gonna be okay.

This sort of feeling that we're gonna get away with it.

I think that that's the danger.

- Yeah, that's the danger and the same people who were at the Capitol, you know, during the insurrection are targeting our community with intimidation.

So that's what is entirely scary.

We're in a new moment, you know, I think, it feels as if the community is being targeted in a particular way that will escalate the violence, which is what we saw with the Asian American community after the rhetoric around the coronavirus.

As well as some immigrant communities when there was the build the wall rhetoric.

And now this rhetoric is laser focused on the LGBTQ community during Pride Month.

And it's deeply problematic.

We're seeing Proud Boys go to book readings.

So, all of this is connected.

With regard to the schools, you know, all of this is interconnected as well.

We know that critical race theory was not being taught in schools.

That is a legal theory.

They created a boogeyman in order, in my opinion, frankly, in response to the uprisings.

So, one moment we had Black Lives Matter on Amazon Prime.

The next minute they're wiping out books, like "The Bluest Eye" by Toni Morrison and they're targeting LGBTQ topics - And somewhat in the name of just doing what they did while during the time of the protest following George Floyd's murder, there were the protests and there was violence and there was destruction.

And so that episode has been used as an excuse to say, well, they did it and so we're gonna go and exercise our rights.

And if you know, there's violence as a part of that, you know, it was acceptable there, but it really wasn't acceptable.

And it was, the people who did something were made accountable.

- Right.

- There were arrests and people have been punished, but there's, it just still seems like there's a feeling out there that it's okay, that I'm gonna be excused.

And that, you know, this is the moment.

And it's taking things back to where they were.

When you talk about intimidation, that is the tactic that was used back, you know, predating civil rights.

- Exactly.

- And all through civil rights.

- So you it's, we exactly, we have an advance and then they want to move us beyond where we have advanced to.

And that's what this moment feels like.

So, I think we were having more tolerance and acceptance in schools, not every school, not every place.

And, you know, frankly, there is no content that is taught K through three around people's sexual orientation or gender identity.

And so these are just, again, this is another boogeyman that is being put out.

They're sounding an alarm and creating a problem in order to solve it.

There is no problem.

- Well, let me ask this, what is the value you think, let me pull Representative Alston in here.

What is the value of having literature in schools that speaks to some harsh realities and also some non-mainstream realities?

You know, some parents would say, well, I don't want talking about lynching in school.

I don't, 'cause my child is not ready for that.

My sixth grader is not ready for that.

And then they'll kind of tie that to other uncomfortable content.

What's the risk of not having that there though?

- Well, I think the risk of not having that is our kids don't learn the truth and they deserve to learn the truth.

They deserve to learn all of our history.

And frankly, you know, those decisions about curriculum about what books should be in libraries and classrooms are decisions that should be made by educators and not by folks of the general assembly, not by politicians and that you see, I think the danger that we see is that kids are gonna learn less, their critical thinking skills won't develop the way that they should.

They'll be less tolerant and accepting of their peers, they'll know less about themselves.

It's particularly, LGBTQ kids will continue to be, you know, disproportionately harassed and subjected to violence in their schools without the support that this kind of content and the educated teachers who have the resources to help protect them.

And yeah, that's what's at risk and politics, politicians inserting themselves into this equation is incredibly disruptive and, and incredibly dangerous, so.

- Kendra, is there any work that Equality NC is doing in this space to try to advocate for certain kinds of literature in public schools and for certain kinds of content to be taught in the history courses?

- So our work is primarily around training and education.

And when these books were targeted, we organized with some of the librarians because you know, the most of the book bans have actually happened at public libraries, which is not inside of schools.

We try and create a situation where every student can see themselves reflected and representation matters.

So.

- We need to talk about Black history because we have Black... We have Black students in the classroom.

We need to talk about queer history because we have queer students in the classroom.

We need to talk about immigration, Native history, all of those different things because classrooms are not monolithic, and our history should reflect the people who are absorbing it, who are studying, who are trying to understand how this country came to be so that we can do better.

And we've been through the road of total exclusion of folks.

There was a time when Black people were not, quote-unquote, mainstream, and we need to have better and proper representation, so we don't repeat these mistakes that we have done in our history.

- Agreed.

Everyone deserves to be represented and learned about.

For the second week now, there have been hearings on the investigation on the January 6th attack.

Most recently, testimony by poll workers was shared and revealing even more about how much of an organized effort there was leading up to, during, and following January 6, 2021.

Representative Alston, what are your thoughts about these hearings?

- So far, I mean, there...

I think that what we've learned through those hearings has been shocking and also just affirms what I feel like we knew, and that's that the folks that went to the capital went there, conspired to be there to undermine our election and to undermine our democracy, and that President Trump had a hand in that from the beginning.

I think it's devastating, and I hope that there are real consequences at some point at the end of this process for the folks who were involved, including President Trump.

And yeah, I hope...

I hope this is a real bellwether moment for our country, in that, you know, we saw the worst in that we're...

Regardless of your political ideology, that we are headed towards, you know, a day and a time where we are more stable as a democracy.

- Kendra, what do you think is gonna come of these hearings?

What would you hope would come from these hearings?

- What I hope is that we get clarity and that there is a general acceptance that we actually had an insurrection and how grave it was and how close we were to, actually, literally a coup in this country, which is something that is new for us.

And I hope that people are held accountable for their actions.

And I hope that we have deeper investigation into Christian nationalists, which I think are some of the biggest threats that are facing our democracy at the moment right now.

- So many say that democracy is under threat at this time, and when you consider the recent arrests of those 31 men in Idaho and the horrific gun killings in Birmingham and Uvalde, what do you see unfolding in our nation, and where's the hope?

Where do we need to put our focus?

Kendra?

- I think we need to focus on working together and being clear that Black, brown, immigrant, LGBTQ folks, women, all of the traditional minorities in this country need to come together, organize to get the representation that we need in terms of our government, and it's incumbent on us to vote and to bring our folks to vote.

Our family comes together to vote.

When I was in Arkansas, it was a date with my mom with my kids to go out.

We need to be getting everyone to the polls, and we need to be getting broader representation that centers our lives.

- And when you talk about minorities coming together, I would think that that includes not just people who've been marginalized by race but marginalized by by region as well, so rural communities and not necessarily people of color.

- Yeah, agreed.

- Representative Alston, what do you hope will come of these hearings?

What direction do you see it going?

- Well, like I said before... Like I said, I hope that...

I hope that this is a turning point for us in terms of, yeah, what we will tolerate as a country.

And I hope we're headed towards, again, a place where all of our communities are invested in protecting our democracy, at the very least.

And I think that there are some lessons just in terms of just where we've gone in terms of the... Just politically in North Carolina, where... To Kendra's point, where we kind of come together as communities, where we listen to each other, especially our folks who are in our rural areas, where we talk to each other about, I think, our shared interests, the fact that I think we want all of... We want our schools to be strong.

We want people to have good jobs.

We want people to be safe in their homes.

- And I think that's something that all of us want.

- [Representative Alston] Exactly.

- And that's an area of commonality.

- [Representative Alston] Exactly.

- Representative Vernetta Alston, Kendra R Johnson, thank you so much for being here.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- I wanna thank today's guests for joining us today, and we invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google Podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Thanks for watching.

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